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Oriceles Meta Analysis [15.3] + Tier list 18-6-2018
#11
On Pompeii: I think Maya is the designated overheal black card, which is her strength even without ML. The first time I cleared Khaos was with a non ML Maya team, so she's not as dependent on him as you might think.

HP is nice, but if you're going to have to tank 30k+ hits at some point repeatedly, you're going to play elves and not Azathoth or Pompeii. Maya's in this neat place where her HP tends to be high enough to tank most hits from enemies but low enough that she can heal to full instantly without any actives.

Not to say again that Pompeii is a bad card. He seems great, especially after the buffs. I think if he does well at transmig, which is a test of longevity and range of problem solving ability, then it seals the deal for him as top tier. And it's ridiculous to say Aza is a bad card. Just that no leader has everything, MH has succeeded in keeping a sense of balance in that, and its more desirable to have a range to choose from than to forward any one card as the one you can use to clear every stage.

I mean, sometimes you can, but it would be easier if you didn't try to force it and just used a different leader with better suited strengths. I've seen guild members get really salty whenever a stage can be solved by Aza but really wasn't meant to be and they're annoyed at how hard it is.

I think what might affect Pompeii's long term popularity (not viability but popularity) is that he's hard to spin for. People like easy leaders, it's why Izanagi is still so popular despite lagging behind on damage.

On Gon and Killua: Can anyone definitively say how the dissolve thing works? "In its own column" is very vague. Aaron's team setup in his recent vids implies it works even with one rune dissolved as he sets up E-E-F-D-D-D to match the Izanagi convert. Their max multi is 81x which matches Atlantis, not quite on the level of Phanes and Gaia for raw multiplier, but the combination of Atlantis multiplier and Izanagi ease will keep them safe in meta for a long time I think.

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#12
I tested gon in arena, yes it works even if your dissolve horizontally with just one rune of the same attribute below any card.

 Big Grin Angel

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#13
I just played first stage in tower for 3 stamina to test it out.

Used chizuru , kim , gon in team, as they have approx near same att.

It seems to work for dissolve at least 1 runestone below any member, also it works for whole team.

Example :

Dissolved below gon and chizuru, not below kim. Kim did 50% dmg compared to Gon and Chizuru.
Dissolved below all, all 3 did almost equal dmg.

I don't know if I am so bad at english but this sentence is confusing :

"by dissolving Runestones of the Monster's Attribute in its column, the Monster's Attack x 2 additionally (no superimposing)"

of the Monster's - plural is monsters, monster's should then be a sign of belonging, but the sentence itself doesn't imply if it only applies for Gon or whole team. It would be so much better if it said "(applies to each member individually)".

If I would go by logic of elimination, I'd take example of Mufasa :

"The Monster's Attack x 10 for 1 Round (no sharing to other Team Members)."

So each time leader skill or active skill has an effect that doesn't specify color, like in this case, but monsters themselves, it will be always shared inside team unless it says "no sharing to other Team Members".


edit: but then again we have example on Gon "Rock: The Monster's Attack x 7, regardless of Defense." , which doesn't imply if its team or himself, but by some logic, it applies only to him. I give up, Madhead is too bad with words that I could make out rules governing them, or I'm too bad at english.


edit#2 : Just to add and sum up what confuses me :


Benimaru has : " if Leader and Ally are the same, the Monster's Attack x 4 additionally (only the first batch of Runestones dissolved will be counted)."
Which only applies to himself.


Gon has : "by dissolving Runestones of the Monster's Attribute in its column, the Monster's Attack x 2 additionally (no superimposing)"
Which applies to whole team


These discrepancies in descriptions are so confusing

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#14
(06-01-2018, 03:32 PM)Fauxy Wrote: On Pompeii: I think Maya is the designated overheal black card, which is her strength even without ML. The first time I cleared Khaos was with a non ML Maya team, so she's not as dependent on him as you might think.

HP is nice, but if you're going to have to tank 30k+ hits at some point repeatedly, you're going to play elves and not Azathoth or Pompeii. Maya's in this neat place where her HP tends to be high enough to tank most hits from enemies but low enough that she can heal to full instantly without any actives.

Not to say again that Pompeii is a bad card. He seems great, especially after the buffs. I think if he does well at transmig, which is a test of longevity and range of problem solving ability, then it seals the deal for him as top tier. And it's ridiculous to say Aza is a bad card. Just that no leader has everything, MH has succeeded in keeping a sense of balance in that, and its more desirable to have a range to choose from than to forward any one card as the one you can use to clear every stage.

I mean, sometimes you can, but it would be easier if you didn't try to force it and just used a different leader with better suited strengths. I've seen guild members get really salty whenever a stage can be solved by Aza but really wasn't meant to be and they're annoyed at how hard it is.

I think what might affect Pompeii's long term popularity (not viability but popularity) is that he's hard to spin for. People like easy leaders, it's why Izanagi is still so popular despite lagging behind on damage.

On Gon and Killua: Can anyone definitively say how the dissolve thing works? "In its own column" is very vague. Aaron's team setup in his recent vids implies it works even with one rune dissolved as he sets up E-E-F-D-D-D to match the Izanagi convert. Their max multi is 81x which matches Atlantis, not quite on the level of Phanes and Gaia for raw multiplier, but the combination of Atlantis multiplier and Izanagi ease will keep them safe in meta for a long time I think.

I understand the part about Overheal shield for Maya, but don't you feel that sometimes she feels a bit inconsistent in terms of her skydrops? Though that is when members can come in to help. 

Also don't know if you're replying to me about Azathoth, but I never said he is a bad card. He's actually a very good card with well designed leader skills and etc. and he is not difficult to use. He's so ridiculously strong that I haven't touched him in awhile just because I want some challenge.

And yes, about Pompeii's long term popularity, he is kind of hard to spin for. It's not that easy to focus on solving 6 spots and same amount of WFE at the same time. What I do is just dissolve as many as possible (averaging 7 combos with Pompeii) and let the active do the burst. That active though, makes Yog Nightmare last battle into a joke. 

I do hope not only Pompeii, but also Atlantis, Azathoth and Maya performs well on this upcoming transmigration. 

Also, if we talk about what teams can clear transmigration, Daoloth does have a big argument too. I think Daoloth have an easier time clearing the previous transmigration than Azathoth does. But tbh, what Daoloth does fails on is overheal shield and limited cards you can use. Though, the team of Daoloth, Pluma, Fenrir, Colin, Daoloth can pretty much clear 90% of the game content already.
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#15
I agree on that with you Vespher, I went to Discord to ask around a lot about it before posting the thread, then tried the test team in lost relic to try to get my own conclusion but I couldn't see much difference in the high damage output so I couldn't really tell if dissolving the column was making any extra effect, Gaia/Phanes for example would shake the screen when a member who has 2.5x triggered in his column attacks.
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Common adjutants: Atlantis, Nobunaga, Arthur, Ophiuchus, and Turing.
I'm Guild of Saviors president, and we are looking for members.
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#16
I mean, she's always been like that but it hasn't stopped her from doing the most complicated stages. I play her a lot and if it was bad more than it was good, I would have stopped using her a long time ago, which I do with cards I don't feel are consistent enough like Ophiuchus. You're gonna see her clear any stage that calls for a light team and doesn't have God Racism, and a lot more than those. Maya has really consistent recovery and decently consistent damage, both of which are built into her mechanically rather than through numbers, so she's really quite different from other leaders, even Erebus who I play does not really feel like Maya. There's not that sense of safety. It is like rolling dice sometimes, but she's set up in such a way that in many situations you get to keep rolling the dice over and over until you hit jackpot.

I actually find myself struggling with Greeks more for damage variance, weirdly. Sometimes I'll have a smooth run with Hephaestus or Artemis and sometimes they'll clip just below 1HKO for nearly every important enemy that should have been 1HKO'd, especially dangerous in stages with early threats that will kill you before you get enchantress effects up, like that last Platycodon SM.

Aza I said that because I mentioned him in comparison to elves, who have opposite strengths. He's a card who is very powerful but has clear no-sell stages because of the way he's designed. A lot of the community is treating him as the solution to all problems, but I think they make things more difficult for themselves with that kind of thinking, especially the way he's recommended to newbs who don't know that none of his best members are easy to acquire, and that MH doesn't release dragons very often.

Daoloth seems quite good but the recovery thing has been a recurring problem since he was first released. If they made him a better elf maybe, his elf options are not very good despite them being supported by his leaderskill. Greedy elf queen evolve? Woodbury remake?
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#17
http://towerofsaviors.wikia.com/wiki/Neferpitou

Horror card detail is out. I'm really interested in what Meruem will actually be like since all these cards are buffing him.
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#18
(06-02-2018, 05:41 PM)Fauxy Wrote: http://towerofsaviors.wikia.com/wiki/Neferpitou

Horror card detail is out. I'm really interested in what Meruem will actually be like since all these cards are buffing him.

Still missing the last beweekly probably general that boost rec... if meruem sux its totally useless 
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#19
(06-01-2018, 09:32 PM)Fauxy Wrote: I mean, she's always been like that but it hasn't stopped her from doing the most complicated stages. I play her a lot and if it was bad more than it was good, I would have stopped using her a long time ago, which I do with cards I don't feel are consistent enough like Ophiuchus. You're gonna see her clear any stage that calls for a light team and doesn't have God Racism, and a lot more than those. Maya has really consistent recovery and decently consistent damage, both of which are built into her mechanically rather than through numbers, so she's really quite different from other leaders, even Erebus who I play does not really feel like Maya. There's not that sense of safety. It is like rolling dice sometimes, but she's set up in such a way that in many situations you get to keep rolling the dice over and over until you hit jackpot.

I actually find myself struggling with Greeks more for damage variance, weirdly. Sometimes I'll have a smooth run with Hephaestus or Artemis and sometimes they'll clip just below 1HKO for nearly every important enemy that should have been 1HKO'd, especially dangerous in stages with early threats that will kill you before you get enchantress effects up, like that last Platycodon SM.

Aza I said that because I mentioned him in comparison to elves, who have opposite strengths. He's a card who is very powerful but has clear no-sell stages because of the way he's designed. A lot of the community is treating him as the solution to all problems, but I think they make things more difficult for themselves with that kind of thinking, especially the way he's recommended to newbs who don't know that none of his best members are easy to acquire, and that MH doesn't release dragons very often.

Daoloth seems quite good but the recovery thing has been a recurring problem since he was first released. If they made him a better elf maybe, his elf options are not very good despite them being supported by his leaderskill. Greedy elf queen evolve? Woodbury remake?

Ah.. Yes, your point about Maya is really true. She really can go through most of stages with her recovery, damage, survivability, etc. And that is true for most black cards too.

About greek, I have been getting trolled a lot by skydrops lately. Like when I dissolve full board, I'd only get 4-6 extra drops, especially when hitting bosses. But when I do not need so many sky drops, it goes over 20 base combos for me. That's why I've been shying away from greek (except Athena team) for awhile now.

About Daoloth, as a player who played ONLY Daoloth since his release until recently, I find that the only stage that Daoloth have problems with is Overheal shield. His recovery is not as low as it seems actually (And I cleared transmigration with Daoloth team without much of a struggle). He can heal very well and with His active or craft, you can guarantee to heal to nearly full. Also, the huge HP that he has really increase the room for error you can make. A great example is the Ultimate stage for Chollo. In round 5B, with 60k+ hp, I can tank 3 hits without much of a problem (4 if you have more heart rune+dissolve under Pluma) and can have a very safe clear. TSZ on the other hand? Unless your hp is over 20k, that's a one hit KO for you. So far with Daoloth, the only stages I haven't been able to clear without using diamonds are Yog NM and Khaos (I didn't have Mysorensis or Clara at that time, had I had one of them, I would have been able to clear Khaos)

Also, as you mentioned some time before in another meta thread, some people really value something above all others, for example you value more spinning time (I think? I forgot lol, have to go back and read), while I value HP.
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#20
Yeah lol. Unless a team that actually has everything is released (and that seems unlikely), there will be this imbalance of strengths that makes people favor teams depending on the style of play they feel comfortable with.

I can't remember what I said either. Nowadays I favor teams that have high recovery, because I personally feel more recovery gives you more safety than high HP, but that's me. Of course the teams have to be able to take a hit to begin with.

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