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Lucifer and Luna
#1
Star 
[Image: 50?cb=20151207203030][Image: 50?cb=20150705131638]

Luz Clásico. Lucifer (ML) + Luna (Lunafer for short) is an archetype which is created by two core member cards rather than a leader. They've defined a large amount of the light attribute's gameplay style for a long time and look to continue to do so.

Important to the archetype are their active abilities:

Lucifer: Light Attack -50% and that of Demons becomes 0. The deducted Attack will be transferred to the Monster's Attack. Attack is launched only when Light Runestones are dissolved. The Skill stays in play until reactivation of the Skill or defeated.
Luna: Synchronize the Attack of all Gods and Demons as the greatest God or Demon Attack launched for 2 Rounds.

And their teamskill:

Lucifer: Attack of all [PR Lucifers] in the Team will synchronize with that of specified Monster that has the highest Attack.
Luna: Attack of the 1st [Luna] from the left will synchronize with that of the 1st [Lucifer] from the left.

Explained: Lucifer drains Light and Demon base attack for himself. All copies of Lucifer and the first copy of Luna in the team will copy the final damage of the Lucifer with the highest attack. Thus a team's total damage increases tremendously with every copy of Lucifer + the first Luna on the team, to the maximum of 3 Lucifers and 1 Luna or 4 Lucifers (based on calculations it should be around 2.5x upwards depending on team setup). Luna's active extends this effect even further to the non Lunafer members of the team, of which there will always be at least 2, leader and ally.

Luna's AR makes this combination even stronger by adding an additional 400 base attack to every god on the team.

UPDATE:
[Image: 50?cb=20151117182239]

So I when I first learned of Jiang Ziya's AR I was sad because I had written this thread and now it seemed that ML was going to be obsoleted. Luckily or unluckily, a combination of the actual nature of his AR being revealed and a realization that I had made a critical error in calculating damage totals meant that after review, I realized Jiang Ziya will probably not dethrone ML anytime soon. Here is the comparison table:

[Image: tTLlXVz.jpg]

EDIT: I have decided to diversify the original table I put here with more sample teams.

SWK is Sun Wukong. Y'go is Y'golonac. Note that at least one demon for ML is better than a monogod team even with AR Luna.

You'll see here on average that JZ will outdamage Lucifer. However it is important to note that it is not by a significant amount, every comparable Jiang Ziya team to an ML team will only do around 1.1x more at top damage to 1.2x more at base damage. For that 1.15x average damage, you are risking having your team damage being halved and being unable to burst through the enemy, because what determines whether Jiang Ziya gets 4x or 2x is the team HP before recovery that turn. Having an HP deficit--getting hit at all--means your team loses half its attack.

So, TL;DR: Is Jiang Ziya an acceptable replacement for Lucifer? Yes. Will he become the preferred damage booster for this archetype? Flat nope.

Strengths and Weaknesses
+ Very powerful persistent boosted damage.
+ High base stats on account of Sealed Lord heavy team and potentially AR Luna, who also provides permanent time extension of 1 second.
+ Strong offensive/defensive convert in ML's second skill
+ The most important card is F2P (and quite an old SM that's easy to farm) and there are several options for leaders.
= Carrying less than two Lucifers makes the team weak to neutralize reset.
- Lucifer has a long CD of 8, 2 higher than typical "enchantress" effects.
- Team cost is among the highest especially for fielding multiple MLs, restricting newer players from this archetype.

JZ Strengths and Weaknesses
+ High damage from the first turn, does not need to wait for active like ML does.
+ Acquirable year round from the diamond seals.
- You will need multiple maxed and AR'd Jiang Ziyas to match ML's damage.
- Damage is inconsistent unless you can assure a kill every turn.
- His active is not that useful for any leader except Maya.

Leaders
[Image: 50?cb=20170822101229] Maya the Calendar Creator ★★★★★
Multiplier: 9x up to 14.4x.
+ Freeform dissolve makes spinning easy and combos high.
+ X-dissolve gives her a chance for even more combos than teams of her kind are normally capable of, as well as helping solve problems such as electric or marked runes.
+ 3 attacking runes, so the volume of runes added to the damage tends to be high.
+ 2 recovery runes (up to 3 with her active) and high combos make her recovery very high, capable of handling overheal shields with ease.
+ Great boosting active which has a short CD and is tailor-made for Lunafer teams.
+ A black card, so guaranteed that MH will do their best to keep her in the meta.
+ Her leaderskill means that ML's convert is a 100% offensive convert, with every rune on the board being an attacking rune.
- Cannot manipulate skydrop in her favor with members.
- Can still be as luck reliant as most freeform teams, especially before ML is activated.
- Requires 2 of her 3 relevant runes to be dissolved every turn, leading to occasional rune drought.
- Stalling can be difficult. Hearts as an offensive rune mean cannot heal and not attack at the same time.
- A black card, so unavailable for large chunks of time and difficult to acquire even when available.

[Image: 50?cb=20180122110032] Dazzling Light - Apollo ★★★★☆
Multiplier: 0x
+ VR Greek guarantees massive combos for every dissolve in exchange for a standard multiplier.
+ Added bonus combos, with a guaranteed 10 for the first 10.
+ Creates god runes, which empower Lucifer and Luna.
+ Easy to use, fun to watch.
+ High recovery so long as heart can be dissolved.
+ Persistent and easy to maintain buff as active.
- Damage before activating Lucifer and Apollo actives is not great, can be luck reliant.
- Stalling on weaker monsters is almost impossible.
- Board tends to fill up with light runes, making solving certain shields difficult.
- Heart drought is possible and likely if hearts are dissolved every turn, due to light crowding.
- Lucifer's conversion is made potentially useless as an offensive convert, as Greeks are stronger dissolving more colors rather than less.
- As a VR, resource intensive to acquire, and not useful until in his final form, thus not newbie friendly.

[Image: 50?cb=20171204093922] Twilight Flylady - Beelzebub ★★★☆☆
Multiplier: 16x up to 36x
+ Probably the best choice for people who do not like randomness being a deciding factor in gameplay.
+ As a demon, raises ML's attack by much higher than is standard simply by having her as leader and ally.
+ Up to 3 seconds time extend with AR Luna in the team, allowing for much more complicated spinning such as stacking and preparing runes for high combo spins.
+ Generates offensive runes, which means played well, she can never have offensive drought.
+ Able to reduce the CD of her fairly decent active through gameplay by half (from CD12 to CD6) at best.
= Much more skill heavy than other choices for leaders. Whether this dissuades people or gives them a badge of honor for playing her, I don't know.
- Probably the worst recovery of all Lunafer options, tied with NVR Apollo maybe.
- Her spinning pattern (you must spin sets of full attacks) is not easy to complete with certain shields.
- HP will be lower than other Lunafer teams due to demons.

[Image: 50?cb=20180122110032] Fading Light - Apollo ★★★☆☆
Multiplier: 20.25x up to 45.56x (for matching leader/ally)
+ Highest standard multiplier of all Lunafer options.
+ Can constantly generate offensive runes through active if running matching leader/ally.
+ Does not need to run matching leader and ally.
+ Creates god runestones, which empower Lucifer and Luna.
= There's not that much reason to use him over his OVR form as a leader, I think. But to each their own.
- One of the few options to not offer any kind of spin help on his own.
- His active is dependent on attribute, meaning that if you have drought of both light and dark, it doesn't do anything.
- As a VR, resource intensive to acquire, and not useful until in his final form, thus not newbie friendly.


[Image: 50?cb=20160919072204] Inanna the Awakened Moon ★★☆☆☆
Multiplier: 9x up to 13.5x
+ Guaranteed light drops which will usually dissolve instantly for following her spinning pattern.
+ Up to 3 seconds time extend with AR Luna in the team, allowing for much more complicated spinning such as stacking and preparing runes for high combo spins.
= It's likely her series will be updated at some point and probably completely reworked like Greeks. How far in the future that is, I don't know.
- I mean, it says something when Maya's multiplier, which is intentionally designed to be low as to not make her too powerful, is higher than a card who wasn't designed with that in mind, yeah?
- Babylonian spinning pattern is difficult and often times impossible to perform depending on the enemy's ability (think burning or marked X's and hidden orb shields with time reduction).

[Image: 50?cb=20151005092526] Thor of Lustrous Fulmination ★★☆☆☆
Multiplier: 20.25x
+ Increased drop rate of light runes.
+ Enchanted runes are 15% stronger, making them more powerful than god runes.
+ HP and Recovery 1.2x as long as VR Odin is in the team.
+ Generates his own offensive runes.
- Norse is a crowded team setup. Odin has to be in by default, and the Wine Valkyrie of the matching color is highly recommended. This leaves only two slots for the core Lunafer members, meaning their effect will be much weaker than in other teams, where you typically field 2 MLs and a Luna. Future developments might worsen this problem as Norse has reached the end of its primary development cycle and can only be buffed by new members unless MH decided to introduce an evolution form beyond VR.
- Having both Odin and ML in the same team means this is among the more expensive teams in terms of Team Cost.
- Thor's active is the worst of all possible leaders, even those below him in star rating. His combine skill with Odin is only better enough to be considered usable, but still not particularly special.
- Offers no spin help.
- As a VR, resource intensive to acquire, and not useful until in his final form, thus not newbie friendly.

[Image: 50?cb=20170206115236][Image: 50?cb=20160125130250]Sunlight of Hyuga - Amaterasu + Deicider Overlord Sun Wukong ★☆☆☆☆
Multiplier: 4.5x up to 11.25x
This team is a very niche grind team that is only viable for certain long stages. ML and Luna are core members of this team. It probably deserves its own thread as a separate archetype, or it would if it wasn't so rarely used, but I'll list it here anyway.

[Image: 50?cb=20170731083645] Murderous Mythicist - Jack ★☆☆☆☆
Multiplier: up to 36x.
I'm not sure why people use this. I've seen it done, but I really don't know why.

Other Members
[Image: 50?cb=20170822101229]★★★★★
This is a bit strange to put here, but yes, Maya will be a great member in an Apollo or Beelzebub team.

[Image: 50?cb=20170731083644][Image: 50?cb=20170731083645] ★★★★★
Both good. OVR provides a persistent 1.5x boost to team and NVR is quite a powerful boost under the right leaders. Extra value as demons.

[Image: 50?cb=20180104102650]★★★★★
A 3-in-1: snipe, rune explode, and light converter. High value, especially as a demon.

[Image: 50?cb=20161219100548]★★★★★
A fast convert and burst.

[Image: 50?cb=20161117082408]★★★★☆
A faster, better version of ML's convert active, which, surprise, synergizes well in most ML teams. Good for bulking team HP too. Points off for being neither god nor demon.

[Image: 50?cb=20161103173819]★★★★☆
Useful for back to back bursting. Plus points for demon.

[Image: 50?cb=20160125130250][Image: 50?cb=20160125130250]★★★★☆
NVR is a pretty good converter who grants a lot of control, on top of 1 turn of defense break. OVR is not really necessary most of the time, but good for some very specific situations.

[Image: 50?cb=20170911194010]★★★★☆
Another strong but off-race option for converter, debuffer. Can be an alternative to situations that call for ML and Minamoto's combine skill.

[Image: 50?cb=20180305110904]★★★☆☆
Like AR Jiang Ziya one of the fundamental problems with this card is that you must never be hit, which is pretty optimistic these days. Still, she's a persistent 1.8x with a very short CD, so probably you can get her up a few times over the course of a stage.

[Image: 50?cb=20161031132900]★★★☆☆
A good converter and booster with some time extend. He loses out slightly because you cannot use both of his actives at the same time and there are simply other converters who have more synergy than him, given that he seems to be built for a Water/Light team that never came to fruition.

[Image: 50?cb=20150705131637]★★★☆☆
Two extra attacks, one of which is off color for those pesky anti-light shields. When Luna activates she hits like a truck. Think of her active as being kind of a bonus instead of a main reason to use her.

[Image: 50?cb=20171026093433]★★★☆☆
This is as strong as it gets for boosts for ML, this card is basically designed to help him break into billions of damage. Unfortunately, his stats are not great and his CD is even longer than MLs.

[Image: 50?cb=20160314095040]★★★☆☆
One of the classic fast converters for ML. She's a little outclassed in terms of stats at the moment.

[Image: 50?cb=20140622092301][Image: 50?cb=20141219124348][Image: 50?cb=20141219124407]★★★☆☆
The other classic, and his dopey pair of sword bros, but they don't need to tag along all the time. His stats are similarly bad, but at least his combine skill with ML gives him a little more usability.

[Image: 50?cb=20180122110032][Image: 50?cb=20180122110032]★★★☆☆
Both good but not spectacular members of both their own teams and teams of other leaders.

[Image: 50?cb=20170112162007]★★★☆☆
Good booster but so niche for just this archetype and this one alone you'll wonder why you put effort in to train her.

[Image: 50?cb=20170119122808][Image: 50?cb=20140622092418]★★★☆☆
Starters are always useful, though they do tend to bring the stat total down. They're also off-race for Luna's bonus and ML's increased drain.

[Image: 50?cb=20161031132713]★★★☆☆
Sniper. He does better damage than Y'go with his snipe but it has a much longer CD and an HP cost. Niche, but great when he's called for.

[Image: 50?cb=20180416092149]★★★☆☆
Of the Crash Fever cards, I am only going to recommend her for regular use on this team? She's a decent CD two color board convert with a recovery attack. Not the best depending on the leader and other members you have access to, but sometimes worth.

[Image: 50?cb=20141209045720][Image: 50?cb=20141209045721][Image: 50?cb=20170720104909]★★☆☆☆
Taking up two slots puts him lower than you'd expect on the priority list, on top of being off-race. But if you want a tanky ML team, he's your doggo.

[Image: 50?cb=20150705131637]★★☆☆☆
Irritating because you basically have to play around his active. His AR is interesting, but they should have made it at least a 50% chance if they wanted people to use him. Too luck based, and a lot of the current ML teams are already banking too much on luck.

[Image: 50?cb=20170731083928]★★☆☆☆
Useful in Maya, and to help other teams get over overheal/hearts shield, but ML's convert already contributes plenty to that.

[Image: 50?cb=20160314094720]★★☆☆☆
Her active is okay, and she is farmable year round.

[Image: 50?cb=20180305110906]★☆☆☆☆
This card does not play well with this team. His active has a no sharing clause, so Luna is not capable of syncing to it, and being drained by ML makes the self boost much less worthwhile.

[Image: 50?cb=20140622115034]★☆☆☆☆
For when you need Maya's active, but a vastly inferior version.

[Image: 50?cb=20151022144556]★☆☆☆☆
Removing hearts isn't what you want out of a converter these days. Long CD for his boost too.

[Image: 50?cb=20160519101442]★☆☆☆☆
Just so many better options.


Conclusion:
This came out way longer than I expected it to be lol. I contributed, mom.

[Image: hDTtKNv.png]
LF: Heph and Yog in particular, no more Azathoths pls.
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#2
Thanks for putting this together.  Big Grin  Some comments:

Quote: Thus a team's total damage almost doubles (I'm not sure about the math, I might do it later on) with every copy of Lucifer + the first Luna on the team.

Some quick math.

Assuming all gods on the team and that all members have a roughly equivalent basic attack value, it's a constant 1.5x for 2 ML or ML+Luna, and 2x for 2 ML + Luna or 3 ML.

For 2 ML/ML+Luna and all others are demons, approximately constant 1.8x. For 3ML/2ML+Luna + all others are demons, approximately constant 2.5x.

Of course this is ignoring that different monsters have different stats and that AR Luna gives bonus +400 to gods but not demons. Could do some practical calculations with some common team builds later?

Quote:+ Can constantly generate offensive runes through active (not sure about this, the CD not dropping was a bug, right?) if running matching leader/ally.

It was a bug that's already been fixed. I confirmed with VR Artemis. CD should cooldown normally now. (It was on the known issue list, but the translation ended up a little weird.)

Quote:A 3-in-1: snipe, rune explode, and light converter. High value, especially as a demon.

Worth noting that the snipe won't deal damage when ML is on.

Quote:1.5x boost that lasts 3 turns every 5 turns, and an extra two attacks, one of which is off color for those pesky anti-light shields. Turn on Luna and she hits like a truck.


The 1.5x boost is only for the first turn of the effect... CD5 1.5x wasn't terrible back then, lol. Now we've got all these dang CD5/6 ~2x damage boosters.

I think you missed the Light Keeper as a possibility, btw. CD6 1.8x plus time extension, or alternatively conversion.
I think it isn't bad if you're looking for a booster.

Also worth noting that off color demons can be used as leader/members since ML fully absorbs demon attack. Yog PR when??

ID: 40 944 239  
Ally: Khaos (Dbl Max).
Frequently Used Leaders (All/Dbl Max): VR Greek (FELD), Ophiuchus, Lu Bu, Mastema, Azazel, Izanagi, Rose, Daoloth, etc.
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#3
Oh. I don't have Persephone I was basing it on how Aaronyxy likes to use her, and I always thought that was the effect. And yes I forgot Light Keeper existed. I'll fix it tomorrow. I'm in bed.

The main useful thing about the snipe is breaking invisibility, and Y'go will still do 1 damage even when drained, so he does that. Thanks for confirming stuff.

[Image: hDTtKNv.png]
LF: Heph and Yog in particular, no more Azathoths pls.
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#4
I have persephone ar and i am pretty sure when ML is active she will halve her attack. I dont believe ML absorbs the extra attks from persephone ar. As you pointed out this is not an issue when luna is actvated as u will synchronize attack values. Anyhow i thought i would point that out. Maybe this is not the case but i tested once then never again.

Good job on the thread.
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#5
Another big unmentioned downside on Thor with Lucifer setup is the huge amount of team cost needed to be able to have Odin and Lucifer on the same team,players would need to be around level 500 to be able to do that luxury, it is really strong, don't underestimate the power of two sealed lords, but it's a power behind of such a high level.

Also Minamoto combine skill with Lucifer should be mentioned.
[Image: tgasfLe.png]

[GOS] Oriceles. UID: 64,287,068
Common adjutants: Atlantis, Nobunaga, Arthur, Ophiuchus, and Turing.
I'm Guild of Saviors president, and we are looking for members.
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#6
(02-08-2018, 08:19 AM)jtsmith Wrote: I have persephone ar and i am pretty sure when ML is active she will halve her attack.  I dont believe ML absorbs the extra attks from persephone ar.  As you pointed out this is not an issue when luna is actvated as u will synchronize attack values.  Anyhow i thought i would point that out.  Maybe this is not the case but i tested once then never again.

Good job on the thread.

That's true. I think the idea in using her is not to have her as a constant damage boost (ala Pollux and co.) but as a passive boost to Luna's effective burst multiplier. 

Just did some math, but if you count in the extra damage from Virgo, the damage from Virgo+Luna is actually a little bit higher than the damage from a 1.8x multiplier+Luna, so that's pretty cool. 
ID: 40 944 239  
Ally: Khaos (Dbl Max).
Frequently Used Leaders (All/Dbl Max): VR Greek (FELD), Ophiuchus, Lu Bu, Mastema, Azazel, Izanagi, Rose, Daoloth, etc.
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#7
(02-08-2018, 09:04 AM)Oriceles Wrote: Also Minamoto combine skill with Lucifer should be mentioned.

No **** that , I cant remember the number of times I press the combine skill instead of the merge attack skill on ML. But so many times. I never put Minamoto into ML-Luna team anymore because of that.
ID: 54962818

add me no black cards plz

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#8
(02-08-2018, 10:25 AM)agnesi Wrote:
(02-08-2018, 08:19 AM)jtsmith Wrote: I have persephone ar and i am pretty sure when ML is active she will halve her attack.  I dont believe ML absorbs the extra attks from persephone ar.  As you pointed out this is not an issue when luna is actvated as u will synchronize attack values.  Anyhow i thought i would point that out.  Maybe this is not the case but i tested once then never again.

Good job on the thread.

That's true. I think the idea in using her is not to have her as a constant damage boost (ala Pollux and co.) but as a passive boost to Luna's effective burst multiplier. 

Just did some math, but if you count in the extra damage from Virgo, the damage from Virgo+Luna is actually a little bit higher than the damage from a 1.8x multiplier+Luna, so that's pretty cool. 

I still don't get AR Persephone.  Her passive adds 2 extra attacks conditional on dissolving light and fire runes), which is about +33% team attack (assuming all members attack are the same).  

With ML active on, it is practically 0%.  When you activate Luna, it once again increases to +33% - but when do you really need to use another active together with Luna's?
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#9
(02-08-2018, 09:04 AM)Oriceles Wrote: Also Minamoto combine skill with Lucifer should be mentioned.
I did?

On Persephone: the point seems to be to have an extra two attacks which sync to ML (Once Luna is on), essentially having another two (Half your team attack + ML) attacks. I'll lower her rating since the 1.5x isn't constant like I thought. Also it's light and dark runes to make light and fire attacks I think, so MH did consider that she was going to be used in an ML team with ML's convert. The math, I'm not sure about, as always.
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LF: Heph and Yog in particular, no more Azathoths pls.
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#10
this should be updated regarding jzy ar :lul:
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[GOS] Oriceles. UID: 64,287,068
Common adjutants: Atlantis, Nobunaga, Arthur, Ophiuchus, and Turing.
I'm Guild of Saviors president, and we are looking for members.
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