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All Five Babylon Playtesting Analysis and Thoughts (perhaps even controversial)
#1
G'day everyone.


It's been almost two months since the Babylon gods were first released. As we all know, they are incredbily powerful. Frankly speaking, I am a little uncomfortable with this update since it is the first update since PR JTTW that threatens to overthrow game balance. At this point, it seems that all that has happened is that Babylon made Greek sort of obsolete. As far as other teams are concerned, most other teams are still able to compete. I'm still seeing players achieve a lot using PR Norse for instance.

Anyway, this post is just to summarize my thoughts on Babylon. As a player with all five Babylon gods at max level and most followers at max CD, I thought I'd share further analysis. I've already done one for Light VS dark a few weeks back so I'll skip that discussion.

http://www.towerofsaviorsforum.com/Thread-Post-Babylon-Mono-Dark-Light-Playtesting-Analysis

Before I start, I want to make clear five points:

1) All Babylon gods are incredibly powerful. Any rankings and opinions here is relative within Babylon teams (i.e. it's a comparison between OP teams).


2) Power level is relative and subjective to many factors. Instead, I will rank them in terms of practicality from a perspective of a player with access to all five.


3) This post takes into account the latest enchantress ameliorations... trust me, this is a big deal.


4) I will ignore traits that are common for ALL Babylon teams: quad Greek followers, access to PR Starters..


5) I love converters in Babylon. The math that proves their worth is too complicated. Simply stating, their "damage boost" is affected by your rune spinning ability and the ratio between pre-spinning runes VS sky fall runes. Babylon teams can benefit greatly from converters.

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Personal Babylon Ranking by Practical Usage

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1) Light Babylon

I still have the opinion that Innana is the most powerful of the Babylon teams. ML/Luna doubles as an enchantress + damage booster. PR Yan gives you much higher volumes of light runes to work with and makes column spinning easier by removing hearts. Light has no elemental weakness, is very tanky and still has room for utility. Light has access to A LOT of utility (theoretically any light card AND fiend card).

Look at my post above for a more in depth review.

***

2) Earth Babylon

Some long-time forumers would've noticed that I'm not a big fan of Circe. At CD 10, she isn't too impressive. However, of the three enchantresses, she received the biggest upgrade... previously she was the slowest of the three. A 160/170% CONTINUOUS booster with NO REAL DRAWBACK on TURN SIX is really really powerful. Unlike all the other two, you can activate Circe on turn 6 without any consequences,

Earth also comes with PR BDK which is friggin powerful. As with all PR JTTW, he provides massive healing, ease of rune spinning and high damage bursts every SIX turns! This combos nicely with Circe starting turn 6.

Earth also has Rosa + Diarmund. Together they provide a 300% damage boost on turn 8 (combination + rosa) in addition to conversion.

Earth Babylon is also very tanky. Seriously, tankiness is too underestimated on this forums. Tankiness really helped me with a number of 8 seal stages for example (whereas I would've otherwise died using fire/dark Babylon).

Seriously, Earth Babylon is possibly the fastest of all Babylon teams (and also one of the tankiest). Light Babylon comes online on turn 10. By that time, Earth would've been able to burst up to four times. Heck, I've found Dumuzi's active too slow!

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3) Water Babylon

If you have PR Pisces and/or PR Ao Guang, you will realize that in terms of stats and funcionality Water Babylon is similar to Earth. There's just one problem: Water is slightly slower.

Cassandra might be able to come online on turn 6, but you must be very certain that you can survive till the end of the battle. It's likely that you only activate her towards the end of the battle. Cass' drawback is significant... and doesn't work well with dragons (Ao Guang and AoW).

Earth has a CD 8 Rosa fusion burst... Comparatively, Beowulf takes slightly longer (initial CD 10).

Against a tough stage, Water Babylon will struggle a bit to keep up with the speed of Earth Babylon. You might even forgo Cass altogether.

***

4) Fire Babylon

Let the controversy begin. Previously I had high hopes for Fire Babylon. I mean... you have Medea which should be good in a Babylon team right? And now she comes online on turn 6 too!

I have a few issues with Fire Babylon that irks me...

- The extra fire runes by Medea hasn't been really game changing... which is counter-intuitive. Unlike Greek where luck maximization is important, Babylon doesn't depend on luck. Every Babylon burst can be calculated by your rune spinning. In other words, you will not be depending on Medea's extra fire runes in your sky fall to 1hko a boss.

- Medea does however, give you a few extra initial fire runes to work with. But the increased 150% damage received really puts me off. Cass can be activated earlier on and still allow you to tank a hit (maybe two). Once Medea is activated... you have to really go YOLO (especially since fire Babylon usually has less HP than water/earth/light. I've found that Medea's benefit doesn't justify her drawback at some of the harder stages.

- Tankability issues... I've found fire Babylon to be much less tanky than Earth and Water. I love PR Nezha but his low HP really jumps out at me... especially if you wanna use Medea. Fire also doesn't have a Domon/Pisces equivalent for players who like to use them. My max CD
PR Skuld hasn't been useful too.

Summary: Not as fast as Earth. Potentially equally fast as Water, but with more survivability issues (pre-enchantress activation). Post enchantress... probably stage dependent. Cass means (High HP and assuming full HP) you can take some hits. Medea allows healing if you don't get 1hkoed.


***

5) Dark Babylon

This would come as a surprise. This is a funny ranking because if you have Innana, then it's hard to justify using Namtar. But if you do not have Innana, all of a sudden Namtar is very appealing since elemental weaknesses can be a game breaker. Team building for Namtar has been very awkward. I've already discussed at length why I prefer light over dark. So why do I rank Namtar last?

- Team building feels awkward. PR Xi is good... but the HP is low. SGB is the best converter for dark but he doesn't play well with Xi.
- Lack of an on-colour enchantress... Babylon is great with constant high damage output... enchantresses help with that.
- Tankability issues... I've covered this already in the other post, especially if you use Xi.
- I find the quality of converters lacking. SGB is obviously the best... but I like PR JTTW and Domon/Pisces/Kejourou.
- Not impressed by the choice and quality of dark boosters available.. Light has ML/Luna. RGB has enchantresses that come online on turn 6 (and also immortal fiend fusions). PR Odin is clunky on turn 10.
- With a lack of quality options, I've found myself forced to run cards like Artemis, Astaroth, PR Daji, Endor as followers due to lack of quality choices.
- I prefer RGB Babylon active to Dark/Light.

Essentially, I have A LOT of complains for dark that I do not have for other elements. I have to go over the top to justify dark Babylon's use over the other 4 colours. Lack of elemental weaknesses is a poor argument if you have Innana. Dark used to be the colour with a lot of utility but that is also not the case these days.

To summarize Dark Babylon:
Great if you lack Innana since a Babylon team with no elemental weaknesses is awesome.
Worst of the five if you have Innana.


***
Final comments: My posts may seem to be about "burst burst burst". However, that's not the case. I factored in survivability and tankability as well since these are crucial in completing stages.

Is this controversial?
Do you disagree?
Does this change your opinions on various Babylon?
Is there a Babylon god that you lack and want right now?
Are you lacking any desired followers?

Do share your thoughts (and if you disagree, share your arguments. I love constructive and objective arguments.).

ID 27 321 367

Regular Ally: Max CD PR Daji


Finally completed my diamond seal collection once again so I've got all cards in the game at lvl 99 available for ally upon request.

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#2
Regarding dark - have u tried the novalis dragon version of namtar? Itd get rid of tankability issues.

Main Allies: PR Nezha, All SS Ducks/Dogs

Looking For: PR Baph, Mark II, RGB Yanxi, Solomon/Pete, Su siao-syue, 
 
Main Deck
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Other (complete or in Progress)
[Image: u4IzV_.gif]

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#3
@Psychoticsoul

No serious testing. Just saw a few posts of it in the forums (and a reply to my previous thread). But doing this to get rid of tanking issues seems a little extreme when all I need to do is to choose Innana.

ID 27 321 367

Regular Ally: Max CD PR Daji


Finally completed my diamond seal collection once again so I've got all cards in the game at lvl 99 available for ally upon request.

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#4
I only have Dumuzi now but if there is one Babylon I want it is definitely the light one. I don't have a strong leader other than Dio, PR Virgo and Apollo, so having that will greatly enhance my light team for which most of the followers are skill maxed.

Glad to see Dumuzi being high up the list. Earth is indeed tanky. I don't have DBK but I can easily slot in Nidhogg for the HP. It has very high attack too. Great pool of utility like PR GSOE and PR Verdandi greatly helps.

I must say Circe amelioration came at a good time when the flavor of the game seems to be not allying PR Daji haha.
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#5
thanks for sharing all that @ixidor. not many are in a position to make such a comparison.

I do want Innana since I'm primarily a light user. But I'll live with blue.

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#6
My rankings are almost opposite to yours, but I guess it depends on what cards you have at your disposal. I'm lucky enough to have 4 am iv hephs at my disposal, so for me red wins. Also I think astaroth is the most powerful follower in Babylon decks - the passive drops coupled with an active which lets noob spinners like me line up 5 or 6 columns for major damage is really strong, although I admit his usefulness probably diminishes if you're a pro spinner and can consistently make 4 + columns without actives.
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#7
@Blackpaul

My rankings do not include quad Greek teams since all colours have access to this build (the discussion will then become one based off the stat distribution in each colour).

I agree that Astaroth is a very powerful follower (40% column drop rate + time tunnel) but dark Babylon is still cluncky.

***

Quick question though. How do you quantify the boost provided by quad Greek or at least some Greek followers? Do you like the luck based additional drop rate? Personally, quick (high impact) converters + enchantresses work excellently for me.
ID 27 321 367

Regular Ally: Max CD PR Daji


Finally completed my diamond seal collection once again so I've got all cards in the game at lvl 99 available for ally upon request.

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#8
(05-07-2015, 04:09 PM)Ixidor Wrote: Quick question though. How do you quantify the boost provided by quad Greek or at least some Greek followers? Do you like the luck based additional drop rate? Personally, quick (high impact) converters + enchantresses work excellently for me.

I don't think of quad Greek as being luck based at all, it's a legitimate way of increasing attack runes passively in the same way as Yan or xi does (without removing hearts, which has both advantages and disadvantages in Babylon teams). To be fair, I enjoy the influx of runes popping dbk or nezha gives you, but I prefer the constant bursting afforded by passive sky drops.

I suppose the thing is that most stages aren't designed to require constant high damage and you only need to burst at key stages and can often stall in between. The reality is that Babylon gods are stupidly powerful and you can probably sandwich any junk between them and beat most stages anyway. I can't believe they are now throwing cd farming mobs at us for them - just in case they weren't powerful enough.
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#9
@Ixidor :
Would you be kind enough to tell us your basis for every team plz ?
I know you will switch between cards that fit the most to the next battle but I'm interested in your choices due to the fact you have all babylon team and probably a huge choice of followers.

That way I'll see if you use :
- more flexible or column converters (domon vs darmuid, scubia vs Pisces etc...)
- Starters (maybe depending on the color
- greek (not a full team but as 1 follower)
- RGB YanXi
etc...
Thx
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#10
Namtar:
If you are going for speed, Namtar might not work well: low CD converters are weak stat wise, and convert too little runes to be useful.

The dragon Namtar hybrid I use can tank a couple of hits, but Seal 8 seems a bit daunting with low CD, hard hitting, time reduction mobs. I guess Wawel can add in some healing, but the CD is pretty restrictive.

Overall I'd say its a fun build, but when it comes to SM/NM crunchtime, unless there's a CD restore like Diablo, I wouldn't count on using this deck too much.

Namtar
Novalis
Ursula
Ursula(replaceable with Nidhogg, Faugn, Wawel, RGB Ethereals, Chernabog)
Pilatus


Atrahasis:
I'd agree with your rating on Water Babylon, I run a nearly allmax team of:
Atrahasis
PR Pisces
Douman
PR Ao Guang
Susano'o (max CD not max level)

I bring it up really quick to Trans, hit ML on my first try, and died at Bykahee due to carelessness on 2nd try. Overall tanky, and quick CDs allow you to do wonders.

Compared to other Babylons, Water is not terribly tanky, its not terribly bursty, but play your skills right and the damage can be substantial. Water also does not have a DC that can remove Attributive qualities, unlike Fire, so slight disadvantage here.

Beowulf just came to me today (only 1 bloody elf and 1 dupe elf in todays 20card draw). Don't think I would use him in this deck though: other boosters are faster, and seldom an overkill is needed with the boosters I had chosen.


Ninurta:
I run a Ninurta team as well, and that's why I kept saying Medea i not a choice fit here by default, in several other posts. Damage taken inhibits tanking, and damage increase is so insignificant that using Medea alone is not advisable. However, I ran a Taurus/Medea/Circe/Cassandra Ninurta team and HOOOOO... 3-6mil damage per turn, easy when all are active. Insane. Glass cannon though.

Added advantage is that Fire has a 3star DC that removes Attributive qualities, allowing you to smoke Water mobs. Another DC allows Tumbler, and someone tried it with Circe and it still worked.

Compared to a Light Babylon Glass cannon style with Leo/Cassandra/Medea/Circe, Fire has the advantage of better DC choices, with a Tumbler DC that light lacks. Glassy for both, though you need AmelIV for everything and Max CD to see the impact. Also, because Light has less synergy with Medea in terms of runes, Fire beats Light for this particular playstyle. (Which, most people would probably care little about. Which is why I like to play this way, rare, unique, fun!.)


Sadly lacking Earth and Light, so no comments there...
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